Episode #1 - Is Industry Experience Really Everything When Building Your Career?

PREMIER SHOW - Join Rosin Duffy and Special guest Liz Kearins on the Living Your Career Show and find out if your level of experience is really the be-all and end-all when building your career in this new employment environment.

Here are some highlights from today's episode:

[09:07] What are 3 things you can do to improve the culture of your organisation?

[10:37] Looking for a new job? Make sure to put this in your CV.

[14:54] Best places to build professional relationships.

[22:30] Is it OK to take a lateral move when changing jobs?

[25:20] How to Avoid the Confidence Trap

Roisin will drop a new episode of the  Living Your Career show every Wednesday and Friday

To connect with Roisin Duffy go to:

https://www.facebook.com/Blueskycareers
https://www.linkedin.com/in/blueskycareers/

Transcript

Roisin Duffy  2:06  

Welcome everyone to the first episode of Living Your Career Show, I'm your host, my name is Roisin Duffy. I'm a director of Blue Sky Careers. We are a recruitment and a career advisory agency. And the theme of the show today is whether industry experience is really the be all and end all in developing and building your career. And because many people think it is, and to joining our show today is a lovely Liz Kearns and Liz is a senior executive. She's a board director. She's a management consultant. And Liz has recruited and built diversified teams over the years. And she has also interestingly, seamlessly moved from one sector to another. 

And I really, I should say we go back a very long way. So welcome to the show, Liz. And thank you so much for joining me today on the first episode of living your career. And I guess for the benefit of everybody who's listening in Liz, you know, I've talked about you moving from one sector to another. And most people have the view that if they haven't got the experience, they're not going to apply for the job. Or if they haven't got enough experience, they're not going to apply for the job. Maybe you can tell people a little bit about how you built your career and your career story. 

 Liz Kearins  3:29  

Sure, well, if there's a case study in that experience doesn't count as much as you think it does. I'm it. So I started off my career as a radio journalist, morphed into a public relations specialist for a TV research company in London on the back of having media experience. From there, I moved into communications and corporate communications, particularly working across a number of sectors, including tourism and health. From there, I took it into community engagement and corporate relations brand and reputation. And from there broadened my career out into strategy and culture as well as that portfolio. And in my most recent executive role, I looked after strategy, quality, risk, work, health and safety, people and culture and corporate and community relations. And now I'm a leadership consultant, working particularly with companies who are growing and building great leaders. So I I'm willing to put my hand up and say I probably wasn't experienced enough for any of those jobs. But I feel that I brought things to those jobs from different sectors that I would never have been able to gain if I'd stuck at one.

 Roisin Duffy  4:46  

I suppose one of the things that we talk about, people say to me “Roisin, I haven't got the industry experience, so they're not going to look at my CV.” And I think you know, you've moved seamlessly from one to another and as you said, You didn't perhaps always had the question. But you still managed to make that transition? What knowledge and qualities do you believe you had, that made those employers interested in you so that at least you got the interview, because when you get the interview, at least, then you have the opportunity of getting the job.

 Liz Kearins 5:17  

I think seeing your role is broader than what's your new role description. And I've never really taken much heed to my role description, I've made every job my own. And I've looked for ways to expand my scope. I'm a natural scope, creeper. So if I see a gap, and no one in my company is filling it, I tend to jump in if it's of interest to me, and I think it's important. But also in pitching to employers, it's being able to talk about those transferable skills, you know, relationship building, being an effective communicator, being able to lead and grow and nurture people, it doesn't matter what industry you're in.

Roisin Duffy  5:55  

You must have come to perhaps crossroads, or, you know, turning points. I think sometimes when people are in a niche, their specialization becomes that niche. And so therefore, employers in that industry sector tend to pick them up and employ them. But you have gone from A to B to C to D, I mean, very, very wildly different industries. Did you find that because you adopted that strategy, that you came to more crossroads and had more turning points? And if so, how did you overcome that?

 Liz Kearins  6:32  

I have definitely had some turning points and decisions about what to let go of; probably the biggest. So when you're a journalist, you have a certain view of the world, you're all about working with others, interviewing others, telling other people's stories. And where I translated that into, I guess, public relations and corporate communications was well, that's just telling stories, but telling stories from within and about a company, as opposed to telling stories to the general public, from all over. And so that was a turning point for me leaving journalism, I left at the time that the rise of infotainment came in. And I was really interested in high integrity journalism, and that certainly wasn't what was being employed at the time. So it was a values based Crossroads decision for me, moving into corporate and community relations, and moving into engagement was really a matter of thinking about what's the environment need. 

And there's so many transferable skills, if you're great at engagement. If you're great at working with people as a communicator, then you can take that across many things. I think another Crossroads was putting my hand up to take on things like corporate strategy, a bit around corporate governance. This came from my belief that as a communicator, a professional communicator, your number one job in your organization is to know it better than anyone else. And when you have that, when you have that knowledge of how people tick and how they work together, and where the organization is trying to go, and what the vision is, it's much easier than to transition into that strategy space, because you're already thinking big picture, you're already thinking longer than the next three months, six months, 12 months, you're already thinking in terms of three, five and 10 year horizons. And so those transitions were very important to me, because I was expanding my skill set.

And I've always seen that as an advantage, and a career advantage for me, I'd also be quick to say I get bored easily. So I do tend to expand my portfolio because I become interested in other things.  Culture was another one, I became fascinated by culture, when I joined an organization that had probably the most toxic culture I've ever seen. People were downright nasty to one another in that organization, and I was on the executive team, I had an opportunity to turn that around. And so for me, I saw that was a responsibility as much as anything. But I grew to have a real passion for how creating great organizational cultures drives great strategic performance. So they all link, so I guess I look for linkages, and my Crossroads are all about how will this take me forward.

Roisin Duffy  9:17  

I guess the question there too, is when you're changing culture, you know, culture comes back to good leadership, it comes back to a desire for positive change. And it comes back to the people that you recruit. Now, you would have built your team there and you would have seen other people's builder, other people recruit and build their teams. Were you conscious, I guess, of whether people had particular industry experience? What were the things and this is important for those people right now who are impacted by covid 19? You know, look at the people in tourism or travel, gosh, perhaps even recruitment, quite frankly, there are many, the airline industry there are so many people that are impacted by what's happening right now. And I saw a piece yesterday on LinkedIn, I think I shared it. And it basically said, we're in the travel industry. You know, we've survived 911, SARS, and now COVID-19. And we're gonna pull through, you know, we are so closely aligned to our client and client service or customer service. Why aren't you employing us? Why are you not regarding our industry experience? And I suppose for people listening to this today, we can talk about our experiences, but that's the heart, the core reality for those people right now, when you are recruiting in this company, and you are trying to improve the culture and improve the mix of people and the aptitude and the attitude of those people, the propensity for change, what were you looking for?

Liz Kearins  10:44  

I certainly wasn't looking for industry experience. And in fact, I've employed many, many people who haven't worked in the industry before. And even in specialist fields I've worked, I've employed people in communications roles that have never done communication before. What I look for is value set. I look for passion and enthusiasm and interest, I think they trump almost anything, I look for people who can, in an interview setting, explain some of the things they've done and have real insight into what worked and what maybe didn't work so well, and what they've learned. So people who are lifelong learners, that's what I'm interested in. And I'm looking for people who really want to be part of the organization. And I've had people say, I've got no experience in this sector Liz, but I'm really interested in, it really appeals to me. That's worth everything. To me. I believe that passion trumps experience every day of the week.

Roisin Duffy  11:41  

I suppose it's interesting, because people sometimes in their application that is don't really know how to culture that. And I'm sure that over the years, you've seen a raft of applications that some good, bad and indifferent. And you know, you talk about passion, it's very hard to capture passion in an application letter. But are there certain things that stick out to you and say she may not have experience because this is what happens people write about themselves. But because they don't know your industry, they don't know how to link themselves to your industry. They don't know how to link themselves in terms of their transferable skills other than to talk about themselves. So when you look at that application letter, when you look at that CV is there one thing in particular that tells you they've done their homework, and they are deeply interested because you have met them at this stage?

Liz Kearins  12:29  

Look, there's definitely things I look for. So I look for people being personal, I hate letters that look like they could have gone to 15 different companies and just have had a word replaced here and there. I look for people who are very real about themselves. And I think the best application that is a very personal that ditch the corporate speak, they're actually talking about who you are as an individual and why you want to work for us. Why do you want to work? Yeah, be specific, do your research, absolutely find out about the company, find out about the values of the company, find out about the strategy of the company link, what you can offer to the strategy and the values of the company. That's what I'm looking for your technical skills, that's a given, you're going to need some technical skills, but your interpersonal communication, leadership, diversity and inclusion skills, those are things that transfer across any industry and every employer should be looking for those right now.

Roisin Duffy  13:29  

You notice when you started out and as your career has evolved, we talk about how people develop their learning, how do you prioritize your learning, you've got across different industries, and not having industry experience from A to B didn't matter. But something in there in your learning and development did count. And I suppose if you could just explain how you have prioritized like some people at the moment is saying I'm going to do vocational courses so that I can retrain in essential services. Other people are thinking about doing MBA, or masters or even degrees if they haven't done degrees or whatever courses. But you know, you're somebody who's evolving in your career all the time, even now, how did you prioritize your learning and your development, so that that stood out on your application? 

Liz Kearins  14:19  

First up, I don't think I always did it that well. And I think I've got better at it. As I've got older, I now realize that I need to invest in myself. And so that means I can't do something with my company. I can actually look into it and do it myself if that's of interest to me. So this year, for example, I've done a program through Cornel University in the States on strategic HR Leadership, because I was interested in that. I've done an accreditation program and I've done lots of online learning and if there's been a year for online learning, this is it. I mean, everything's out there and a lot of it's free or very low cost at the moment. So I think you do need to prioritize it though. I mean, even when I was at my busiest that stretched me from morning till night, it was always important to me to stay contemporary to stay across contemporary issues, I tried to go to really good courses, if I got a chance to go to a good conference, I'd be very selective. Business Forum is what I've been to several times, I would highly recommend it, they bring in the best people from across the world; really great foresight and thinking that goes on there. I read extensively, I've got a massive library of books, I'm always buying new books, or going to the library and borrowing books. I was subscribed to a billion newsletters and some weeks that drives me nuts. But you know, if I get one gem out of a newsletter, once a month, I am over the moon.

Liz Kearins  15:46  

And I think the other thing I spend time doing is actually meeting with other people, meeting with other people and other industries and other roles and finding out what they're doing. What's happening in their industry. So staying alive across sectors, particularly if you're looking to move sectors right now. Start getting to know some people in a sector you want to work in, start finding out what the big issues are with them, start finding out what they're talking about what's the language in that organization, because that's going to help you write the right application and get your foot in the door.

Roisin Duffy  16:18  

I think that's so important. Whenever I talk to people, I say to people, it's about your knowledge, it's about your context and their connections. And I say, you know, within your organization, you can be an absolute legend. But if you spend so much time on cultivating that brand, what have you done outside of that organization, if changes visited upon you, when you talk about cultivating these relationships and developing this language and this broader rapport? What sort of sources and means do you use because I know a lot of people are on LinkedIn? Sometimes LinkedIn is great, let's be frank, for some brilliant stuff on LinkedIn. But it can get a bit flooded too. And you know, it can get a bit noisy. So I'm very interested to know, why conferences are a good way of obviously connecting with people and developing your subject matter?  And I guess what else to use, what other sources, and I talk to people I know about people they know.

Liz Kearins 17:10  

So networks within networks are always important. I think one of my pieces of advice would be Never be afraid to approach someone who you think might be able to help you. And most of the time, you will get help. Most of us are very flattered to be asked. And we're more than willing to help give someone else a leg up. So you know, you might be a mentor to somebody. And certainly if you're in your career, and you're looking to transition, perhaps look for a mentor in that industry, or even a sponsor who can help you get your foot in the door. So use your networks within networks. But don't be afraid to cold call either. And I don't mean cold call to sell yourself. I mean to say you know, maybe reach out on LinkedIn and say, hey, look, I'm really interested in your sector and industry. I've heard that you're great at what you do. Would you have even 10 minutes for a phone call to give me some advice? And most people are very happy to help. Most of us are scared to put our hands up. 

Roisin Duffy  18:15  

I think when people are asking for help, too, I think your thoughts on mutuality. I mean, I'm in the recruitment industry. And I get so many people and we obviously run a career advisory side of the business as well. And the number of people that will send me applications and say, Roisin, I'd love you to review this application, Roisin. And can you give me your thoughts, Roisin? What do you think? What improvements can I make? You know, in reality, my time is extremely limited. And I have to employ my time to put people into work and to help them to develop their careers. And I'm just interested, I guess, in terms of how when you are building those relationships as a potential mentor, or somebody asking you to be a mentor, how do you decide whether you want to mentor them or not? And if you feel there's a spirit of mutuality, there?

Liz Kearins  18:59  

I do think it comes down to connection. But it also comes down to me to say,” Can I really help?” “Am I the best person” and I've certainly referred people who've approached me onto people I think, would be a better fit. And so that's another thing as someone on the other side, if someone asks you for help, and you can't feel free to refer them to somebody else, and help them make a connection, that's the least you can do in terms of being kind and passing it on and paying it forward. I think the other thing about that neutrality is please don't take people who do things for a living like you Roisin, this is your business. Don't take that for granted. You know, you may consider that you know, it's a quick job to review your resume. But to do that, well as the professional careers advisor, it's not a quick task. So there may be times when you need to pay for advice and support and you should feel free to do that and feel actually that you're giving back to the person that you're working with. You'll get a lot more I guarantee the person will give more than you pay for anyway. My experience with seeking professional help is that people are very willing to help. But sometimes you do need to be willing to pay for it, depends what it is, you know?

 Roisin Duffy  20:08  

If you want a quick entry cost overview, I think that's absolutely right. Out of interest, how has career advice played a role in your career?

 Liz Kearins  20:19  

Oh Roisin, how can I count the way?  So as you referenced earlier, Roisin and I have worked together, for a long time, so I think I had two preschoolers and one at school. And I've now got three over 20. So it gives you an idea of the longevity of our relationship. And we met in a professional context, Roisin helped me transition from a role that I had actually resigned from based on a values conflict into a temporary role, and then into another temporary role, and then into a permanent role. And I've been placed by Roisin multiple times since. And I guess what career advice has done for me is it's helped me actually plot a trajectory that seen me be able to grow my capability, build my leadership, and expand my scope to the point where I'm now able to be very selective about what I'm interested in working on. I have some great choices. I work with great people. I love what I do every single day. And I feel very blessed. So for me the role that you've played as a mentor or a coach, a cheerleader at times. That also, you know, talking me through some tough calls. I remember at one point in my career, I was offered two roles. One was a national role, working at a senior level, in a large organization that had big influence. The other was a smaller organization, startup effectively, and an executive role. And I remember really being torn, I was very attracted to both roles and Roisin, it was you who really talked me through what do you really want? And where are you going? So the value of someone like you who knows the sectors, knows the industry, knows people in the organizations as well and can give really good coaching and advice. I think it's invaluable. And I certainly wouldn't be where I am today, if I hadn't met you. And so it was very serendipitous.

 Roisin Duffy  22:20  

You're going to make me all shy here now Liz, I just want to share that with you. I guess the other thing in all of that, too, you know, at the moment, people are sort of thinking to themselves, I need to get a job, I have bills to pay, I have family responsibilities. I mean, that's the hardcore situation for many right now as a result of COVID-19. And I guess then for others, perhaps, as you said yourself, you can be more selective now you are more informed, more evolved, and highly valued. You have strong values and where that you operate, how important is it when you're… because I sometimes get very frustrated with people who just jump from job to job to job to job. And I sort of sometimes take stock, actually have a think about what you're doing here. Because sometimes by just stepping back, you'll get more longevity out of this opportunity, then you will if you're just hop skipping all over the place, very hard to work with people who will take the next job rather than thinking about the longer consequences of what they do. From that perspective. You've had long periods of very sustainable and enjoyable employing productive employment for people, why was that important in the choice of role and the choice of career?

Liz Kearins  23:36  

Yeah, when I was younger, I definitely jumped around a bit more. And I was constantly looking for promotion, I guess, which for many young people is, you know, you're trying to climb that ladder. And I didn't know if I necessarily knew while I was doing that at the time, I was just doing it because that's what you did. As I've got older, I guess it's been very important to me to work in organizations that value people. And I am committed to working for organizations that give something back to the community. So in every job, I look up, I don't look at sectors that I don't feel are right for me. So I am selective in that way. Why I think that's important and why putting some time in is important. I've certainly taken steps back. So in my in my last role, I started at a level four in the organization and ended up in the executive team. And I'd taken a step from an executive role back to a level four role. Because strategically I could see that that would be a good move for me in the long term. And I trusted in the fact that I have strengths and that would be recognized and that opportunities might arise. And so in the six and a nearly half years that I was there, I had three different roles at three different levels, ultimately working in the executive team. So I think You shouldn't be afraid to take lateral or even slightly backward steps, if it's going to take you forward. But to your point, be purposeful. Think about what you really want, what stage is your life and career at, think about what really matters to you. And then make your choice. And if it's a toss-up between a job and a company whose values don't align, but set a higher level or pays more and a job in a company where you feel really passionate, and your values are in alignment, but it pays less or the prestigious list, go with the one with less prestige every time. Go with the values fit. You won't regret it in the long term.