Episode #3 - Is too much flexibility good or bad when trying to build a sustainable career in a changing economy?

Join Roisin Duffy and Special Guest Julie Lee on Today's Living Your Career Show. Is too much flexibility good or bad when trying to build a sustainable career in a changing economy?

Here are some of the highlights of this episode:
[06:58] Where does career flexibility fit into the covid world?
[08:14] When should you consider taking a sideways career move?
[11:40] Redundant Employee? What's Next?
[13:45] What is the Best way to Advocate for yourself in your career?
[18:40] Tips to being a better Remote Manager...

Living Your Career is for you, the job seeker, to guide and support you in your job hunting and career development activities.

Roisin will drop a new episode of the  Living Your Career show every Wednesday and Friday
You can connect with Roisin here:
https://www.facebook.com/Blueskycareers/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/blueskycareers/

Transcript

#3 How Flexibility Leads to a Sustainable Career

Roisin Duffy  1:11  

Welcome everybody to the Living Your Career show. My name is Roisin Duffy, I'm a director of Blue Sky Careers. We are a recruitment and career advisory agency. And our theme today is all about flexibility. And is flexibility good or bad when you're trying to build a sustainable career? In particular, the backdrop to that is, we're in COVID-19 times, we're in uncertain and unpredictable markets. My very special guest today is Julie Lee. And Julie is an advisor to boards and senior management teams. She is definitely an advocate for brands and for reputation and for sustainability for diversity and inclusion. 

And Julie has built a very diverse career. And she's had a lot of a national and international experience. And I think Julie would be the first one to say that her career has been built entirely on a flexible career model. So, the career plan went out the door as did Julie’s career goals. Today we're going to talk a little bit about that. So, I suppose Julie will, well, welcome to the show. And thank you so much for wanting to be my guest today. Folks, for everybody's benefit, Julie and I have known each other for a very, very long time. And there is a lot of respect and admiration between the two. So, I'm delighted to have you on board.

Julie Lee  2:38  

Thank you for having me. And yes, let's not mention numbers, because that just makes me feel old.

Roisin Duffy  2:44  

I don't think so, way to go. And, Julie, I guess we're always taught that we must have a career goal. You know, you're finishing university, you're finishing high school, what's the plan? What are you doing? And so by your own admission, you've never had a career goal. So what's your philosophy for success when it comes to your career? 

Julie Lee  3:07  

Yeah, so I did an undergraduate degree in a Bachelor of Arts, which tends to be the degree that people do when they don't know what else they want to do, right? And initially, I thought, well, I love history. I'm going to major in history, and then I failed history in my first year. And I think that was probably one of the first signs for me that you can make plans, but you have to be flexible when they don't quite work out. 

My postgraduate degree was in journalism, which I only did because my father basically said, “Well, what are you going to do next? How about journalism?” He literally filled out the paperwork for me. But what that led me was my passion for communications. So, I sometimes think, well, first of all, sometimes other people know you better than you know yourself. And it's wise to listen to other people and factor their thoughts in.

But secondly, I think, to kind of kick off with the theme of the day is just to be flexible, if things don't go quite to plan. So, you know, following my education, I did journalism, I thought, great, I'm going to be a journalist, and the jobs would flood in. Of course, as many people starting out in a career soon realize, jobs do not flood in. And I ended up taking a job in Japan teaching English. Nothing to do with journalism, right. But I liked the idea of it.

And look, I think that introduced another passion of mine or a dual passion, I guess, which is new cultures, exploring new cultures, understanding new cultures and travel. And both of those things I have utilized extensively in my career since then. So, I came back from Japan, took a job in a call center. Did I want to be a call center operator for the rest of my life? No, I did not. But it was a rapidly growing organization that I could see had opportunity. And sure enough, within six weeks, I was moved to the communications and marketing team. And that's really where my proper career kicked off. 

Since then, you know that there's been a few roles which I've taken that were, at first, not roles that you would logically think was the next step for me. Going back to when you and I met, I had that role that I started out in the call center, I ended up the general manager for marketing and communications after about six years with them. And when it was time to move on, I was a bit lost and thought, “Okay, well, what do I do now?”

There are two things that I recall distinctly from our conversation in those early days. One was you strongly recommended I get some well-known brands on my resume. And I think that more than your job title is probably key, right? If somebody can see that you've worked for brands that they know, that they respect, that they understand, that's probably more useful to them than a job title, which let's face it, I think we've all probably had some unusual job titles that aren't really reflective of what we did day to day, right?

Roisin Duffy  6:10  

Well I think another job title doesn't mean a whole pile. You know, I wouldn't in any way wish to disregard what titles are important internally or the family of titles. But I rarely ever ask anybody, what their title is; probably much more interested in what they're doing, how they're doing it and the value that they're bringing to that role. Do you think, talking about your career progression; do you think COVID-19 has affirmed? Or made you think otherwise, about having a flexible career model? And I say this, because if you said to people, if you're like, if you're out of work, and you say to somebody, you need a job, then they're gonna say, Sure, I'm going to be flexible. But if you're in a job that you don't particularly love, and you're not exactly going anywhere, quickly, a lot of people might think it's COVID-19, are you mad, you're not happy, and you're telling me that I need to move on? Tell us a little bit about where you think flexibility fits into the COVID world?

Julie Lee  7:09  

Hmm, okay. Look, I'm not an expert in recruitment, I leave that to specialists like you. But I, my father was always of the opinion that it's easier to get a job if you have a job, right? So, using your example, if you have a job, you're not that happy with it, but it's what it is at the moment. And you're thinking, well, this is probably not a great time to jump, I should just suck it up and stay where I am.

I actually think that what's going on now has reaffirmed my belief that flexibility is a good thing. And that is because the companies across the world, and in Australia as well, are downsizing or restructuring or moving people around. And the more flexible you are, the higher the likelihood that they'll keep you on and move you into a different role. Right?

I've been in my current role only for two months, I've been with the organization for the last two and a half years. And I've had four jobs in that time and did not apply for all of them. They happen. But earlier in the year, and this was not strictly due to COVID, although probably mirrors some other people's experience, my role was made redundant.

And I think because I had some strong advocates in the business, because I've built up a reputation, people knew me, and they knew that I was flexible. And equally because I knew I wanted to stay with the company, if at all possible. I took a sideways step, even a little bit backwards from where I had been in terms of seniority. But it was the part of the business that I understood well, and it was people that I really enjoyed working with. And there were still opportunities to learn, there always are. And I kind of had in my mind, this is going to be temporary. And I'm going to wait for the right opportunity to come where I can step back up again. And sure enough, that happened in October. 

Now if I had said, nine months ago, no, I'm not willing to take that step backwards or sideways or to do something else. This is not my career path, I'd have left the organization and look, I might have found another job that I enjoyed, but I certainly wouldn't be where I am now. My current role, I have to say is probably one of the most satisfying I have ever had, because of the things I get to be involved with.

Roisin Duffy  9:34  

So, you're up to moving into diversity and inclusion, you have to move into sustainability areas that were not your passion to start out with, but they're quickly becoming your passion; as well as corporate well- being. My question there is: When you're in an organization, your role’s being made redundant. You've been stepped sideways or backwards. Must have been that your values were aligned? You knew the people had regard for you. There were more circumstances that made you plant your feet and wait for a new job to emerge within that organization. You clearly saw there was scope and promise, because if you felt that was it, and this job was going to land you there forever, would you have made the same decisions? I guess that's my question.

Julie Lee  10:19  

Yeah, a good question. And look, this was not the first time I have had a role made redundant. Many years ago, around the time with the mining crash, with all of that going on a role was made redundant; then I did seek opportunities with that organization to move elsewhere. But with Australia, it just, it wasn't an option at the time. So, I think this time, a few years later, lessons learned, understanding better how to get ahead. I definitely reached out to my network. And I think that probably, the longer you work, the more you've been around understanding that..

Roisin Duffy  11:09  

There was as much your internal network as anything, because clearly you stay if you could?

Julie Lee  11:14  

Yes, exactly. I should be clear, yes, I'm talking about an internal network here. So, people that had influence, people that understood what the opportunities were across the business, and where perhaps there was room for me to move. That advocated for me, for sure. But equally, I made it clear what I was interested in, and what I would like to see happen. So I think anyone else listening that's been through a redundancy, can probably understand this feeling that at first, it's just shock, right? You're just thinking, but I'm good at what I do. I'm a good employee, Why me? Why my role, and you just have to remind yourself about you.

So, you know, it's the role that the decision has been made, that role is no longer required. And so, once you get past that, though, I think it's important to say, Okay, so what's next? What are other opportunities for me in the organization? Now, look, ideally, the organization would have taken that into account when they're making these plans. Right. And they would have thought, Okay, well, Julie's role is no longer existing, where else can we put up, but sometimes these things happen quite quickly. And also, sometimes the people put in charge of making those decisions aren't fully across you, or your aspirations or your capabilities. And so you have to advocate for yourself and say, okay, are there any other opportunities for me, I'm willing to explore, it doesn't have to be the exact same.

Roisin Duffy  12:47  

I suppose another thing Julie is that it shows your organization that you're passionate about them, you committed to them? Yes. But there is a question. So when people are too flexible, and we had this conversation, where we're doing some of the prep for the show: if you're too flexible, you find yourself the note taker in the meetings. You may be in the senior management group, or you might be your senior, but it's how do you advocate for yourself? 

How, in particular you want to be flexible, you don't want to be pushy, you don't want to be hurt, barking too loudly. Because, when you're wanting a sort of prime position, but you don't want to be sort of,  you want to be able to advocate, but you don't look like you're pressing too hard, because then that comes across as being too pushy and too much pressure to people out there that are in companies where there is scope for advancement, or they feel like they're being overlooked? What would you say to them about advocating for yourself and the right way to do that?

Julie Lee  13:54  

Okay. So, there's kind of two parts of that, because we kind of started talking about being taken advantage of, and I think that, the older I get, the more I've been around,  I can spot those circumstances better than I used to,  and certainly, throughout my career, I'm sure I've done things. Well, I know, I've done things that weren't in my job description. And were certainly, probably not things that I should have been asked to do. But a lot of them helped me build those relationships with people that were then able to offer me and give me other opportunities to grow. I'm not saying you should be letting managers run around just so that they like you and they promote you eventually. But at the same time, there are certain things that I think can benefit the relationship and you know, and help them see that you're reliable that there's someone like you or someone that they can rely on. But they're also careful ways that you can push back. 

So, the notetaker example… Anyone who listens to other podcasts has probably heard this use because I know I've heard it used a few times. And it is a really good example because it's a task, right? Nobody likes to be the one that's responsible for that. But well, not nobody, I'm sure some people enjoy it. But what my experience has been in the past is that Julie will take the minutes cuz she's got nice handwriting. So a great way to push back against that, and I have used it since I heard this, is to say, “Sure, I'll take them today, but how about we rotate them going forward, and each of us take a turn to take the minutes. And that way, we're spreading it out between us?” And when you come up with a reasonable solution like that, it's hard for everybody in the room to push back against that, right?

That's kind of how I would suggest dealing with that particular thing. But in terms of advocating for yourself without being pushy, I think you need to be clear that it is not pushy, to make sure your manager understands what you want out of your career. Now, you're not going to walk into the room one day and say, “I'm going to be your boss one day.” So deal with that. You've got to be careful how you present it, but equally in the conversations that you have with your manager. 

Most companies have a formal process, if not an informal one, of providing feedback, both ways from your manager to you and your team manager. That should not just be you sitting there listening to your manager telling you what you did well, or what you did badly for the last six months, right? 

That is also your opportunity to say, I really appreciated gaining experience with this, it might not be part of my core role. But one day, I'd like it to be. How can I learn more so that I can progress into more of that role? How can you help me? If your manager isn't actively saying how can I help you, you should be asking them how they can help you. Not all managers are leaders, right?

You know, plenty of people were promoted, because they were good with the technical skills. And they may not know how to be a good leader. And so, in those situations, I just think you have to have that it might take some courage, but you have to have the courage to say, this is what I need from you. And this is what I would like out of my career. And the benefit of doing that is that when opportunities come up, people are clear on what your interests are, so they can match you to them.

There are some companies and where I work at the moment have this, although, it's definitely something we can improve on. But some companies have platforms where you can kind of like LinkedIn, the internal users, right where you can put up there, you know, here's all my experience. And here's what I would like to do. So when the recruitment teams are looking for people, if they want to try and fill a role internally, they can look through and say, who's got the experience and who's got the interest in it. So certainly, if your company has that, do it if you haven't filled that out, do it now. But you know, definitely make sure that your leader and potentially even your manager’s manager is clear on where you want to go. And don't treat it as being pushy. You need to treat it as being open about what your expectations are. Because if you're not clear, nobody else is going to be

Roisin Duffy  18:11  

You talked about management there. And yes, some people are good managers, some people need a bit of development. Same with leaders. You know, I think we all aspire, but the question is, we need to be self-aware. And sometimes hold our hands up and realize we do need a bit of development. I'm curious to understand, in your company, which is a very large and diverse organization, people are working from home. There's more social isolation. With conventional management, you're in the room, you're looking over somebody's shoulder. And I guess I'm curious to know, how, what steps have your company made to perhaps support managers to be better at this remote management?

And also, I guess, the second question is, what steps have you yourself put in place in terms of your engagement and your communication personally, to maintain that tempo and momentum and quality of work that you're doing? Because there's always this kind of level of trust, you're working from home. The old style was, if you're in the office, and I can see what you're doing, I'm happy; if you're not, I'm not sure. So tell me a little bit about how you and perhaps your colleagues and your company have managed that in terms of development and support for people with this distance management?

Julie Lee  19:22  

Yeah, look, I've certainly had a lot of experience with managers who are fans of presenteeism to give it a title. Unless you're there, you can't possibly be working. I have also worked entirely from home and that was a model that the first general manager for the company had set up specifically that way. I have had the experience of working in a role that was always intended to be a working from home role. So through that, I think I developed my what and how I needed to work. I'm a very chatty person. I like to engage with people. And look, a core part of my role is telling stories. And I can't be telling stories if I'm not hearing the stories in the first place. 

So, from my perspective, it's all about, how do I keep those connections? And I don't think there's a company in the country that hasn't experimented with the various platforms for connection and probably had some epic fails as well. Whether it's zoom or teams or whatever the other platforms on Facebook's building one now, it's more corporate focused. 

Personally,  using teams is okay to connect with people, that's one way to do and outside of the actual strict shutdowns, though, a lot of us have had the opportunity to go into an office from time to time, as needed. And I think, for a lot of people, that is probably important to maintain those connections, those face to face connections. Teams is great, but it's not the same as being together. 

So not every role, and not every company can make working from home, work. There are roles that have to be in person roles, right. Understand that. But from a corporate perspective, like the kind of roles I have, for example, and the very office based roles, there is no reason. It has shown that it is perfectly practical to have a large percentage of your workforce working from home. So if you as a manager have had bad experiences with employees from working from home, I think you probably need to look at whether it was you or them, or your organization's processes and procedures, rather than the concept of working from home in and of itself.

I mean, you can't just say poof, everybody's working from home, and it's all going to be perfect carry on, right? You need to make sure that you know, are your employees able to support it? Do they need more or different kind of support to do their job effectively? Particularly if you've got new people starting. I mean, induction during this whole process has been challenging to say the least. Look, do you need to arrange regular face to face catch ups where practical and possible or use teams? Do you need to look at your corporate policies and procedures to ensure that they accommodate all of the different elements that working from home throw into the mix? And that's certainly something that my organization is doing at the moment. My previous role, the temporary sidestep role I had, I managed a team and I had three females in my team, two of whom were single mums.

And I think one of the challenges for them in the early days of this was having kids who suddenly thought Whoa, mom is now my own TV and entertainment slave and explaining to the kids that actually mommy's working right now, and you need to go and entertain yourself was probably one of the challenges I had in the early days. So for me as the manager, and as someone who didn't have kids and didn't have that challenge, I had to try and put myself in their shoes and think Okay, so how do I make it easier for them to get their job done? How do I make sure that they don't feel guilty every time their kid interrupts them, that they don't feel frustrated or mentally fatigued by the additional responsibilities that they've got during this time? And, look, it was as simple as connecting with them as often as possible, we had a catch up every morning. Well, it didn't always work out that way. But we tried to catch up every morning. And just check in and it wasn't necessarily a work catch up. Although we could talk about work if we wanted to. It was more how are you going and also being flexible with their work hours? 

Julie Lee  23:48  

For a lot of jobs, does it really matter? Whether they're doing the work between 9am and 5pm? Or realistically, could they do a chunk of it, you know, at night when their kids are in bed. And these are all things that companies have had to say, I learned this year because realistically working from home has been around a long time, but a lot of companies have been forced to learn how to make this work this year. And as I say, I really think that it's become clear that it is eminently doable, but you definitely need your managers to be on board and supportive and trust that their staff are doing their job, even if you can't see them sitting at their desk.

Roisin Duffy  24:28  

Julie, one of the things I knew about you, and I guess it's interesting, you cultivate relationships very well at the workplace. I think you are probably one of the key people that I know that have had your executives take you from one company to another. And I suppose I would regard them as sponsors. I know you've had mentors in your career, but you've certainly had very strong sponsors. My question to you is for people out there in this market where jobs are in short supply, “If you're in a good company, how do you cultivate those?” (sponsors) That sort of sponsorship was flexibility, one of the critical factors. So I'm very interested in your thoughts about cultivating sponsors that will continue to lead you down the career path. And was this challenging, diverse and stimulating for you?

Julie Lee  25:20  

Yeah, okay. I live in Sydney now, we moved down here about three years ago. And I moved down for a role that I took at the behest of a previous manager who I have so much respect for, and so much admiration and trust that he knew what he was doing. When he said this, that was the right role for me, unfortunately, and this was out of his control. In the end, that role didn't work out. And, you know, I ended up moving into the role well with the organization today. However, Sydney wasn't even on my list. So going back to that whole not having a career plan. A few years ago, well, probably more than that. Now, I'd started to talk to my husband about, let's live somewhere else, I was a little bit over Brisbane, I've lived there for a long time, I was ready to try something different. 

Roisin Duffy  26:13  

But people are going to be horrified that you've just said that. I think you've all of our State of Origin fans, including me. That said, we lost a good woman to New South Wales.

Julie Lee  26:21  

Yes, I do work for an intern for a national company. So I'm still benefiting the state of Queensland.

Roisin Duffy  26:29  

But,

Julie Lee  26:30  

I wanted to try something different, right. So we've talked about Melbourne, we've talked about Vancouver, we've talked about, I've got a lot of connections in, in the US particularly in Utah. But as I say this role came up. And because I had such respect and trust for this particular executive, I said, Sure, let's do it. And when I first started working with him, actually in a role that you placed me in, for not for profit, I think he obviously saw that I was capable of more than I was doing. Because there were a few times during that role where opportunities came up to add to my portfolio. And he was always like, Julie'll do it. Here you go. 

I guess that loops back to your question earlier around, just taking things on and taking things on, but all of the things that he gave me, work advancement opportunities, that wasn't scoped work, right. So because he knew that I was flexible, and that I would take these opportunities and run with them. Yeah, I definitely think that's why he did.

Roisin Duffy  27:37  

So what you're saying is you need to cultivate, you need to cultivate belief, you need to show that you have the competence, you need to take some of those strides to show that you're confident, and that you have the capability because it's a little bit like if you don't put your hand up, and if you don't tell people, how are they going to know? I've got one final question.

Julie Lee  28:00  

I was just going to say. So just tied to that putting your hand up. A lot of organizations have what we call working parties or kind of volunteer opportunities for things that happen, the things that get done that don't belong to a specific role. But you know, they wanted to do this. And it could be as basic as the end of the Christmas party, but where I know, one of the areas that we do this in is in the sustainability space. And I very early on, put my hand up for that, because it was something that I was developing a strong passion for.

And to your point about making sure that people know who you are and what you're passionate about, through volunteering for that working party, I got exposure to senior people in the organization that I didn't, wouldn't otherwise have been exposed to. And again, I think that certainly helped with my sideways move, and also to lock in the role that I have at the moment. So yes, I was just gonna say it's not just about sticking your hand up for extra jobs to add to your role, but what are those other kind of opportunities in the organization that will help give you exposure, but that can be more about your passion and the things that you enjoy doing?

Roisin Duffy  29:19  

And back yourself? I have one final question that I have to wrap up. Quick question. A tip for anybody out there around flexibility. It's COVID-19. A lot of people out of work, a lot of people that work their employment is at risk. One quick statement of flexibility and its benefits to now.

Julie Lee  29:36  

I think you need to be flexible both in what kind of roles you're applying for whether they're short term, long term, you know, contract roles, fixed term, permanent, and also how you find those roles. So, don't just rely on job boards online, whether it's LinkedIn or wherever. I have one piece of advice I would strongly suggest. Find yourself a recruiter that you trust that you can work with. Because having found you all those years Roisin made the world of difference to my career, because they can help you understand better what you could be doing, and what your strengths are. And they know the industry, so they know where the opportunities are. That would probably be my final bit of advice is find someone you trust that can help you through this.

Roisin Duffy  30:27  

Julie, it's always lovely to talk to you. And we do talk occasionally on the phone. The fact that I don't see it was a sadness for me. But Hello, we're doing it today. To everybody else who's out there and who's listening to the show. The show airs every Tuesday, every Thursday at 12 noon. And we have wonderful people like Julia as guests. Next week, we've got two more wonderful guests lined up that will be covering other topics. If you have areas that interest you that you want us to talk about, tell us! We'll cover them. And I guess for now for myself and Julie goodbye. But also go out there and learn. Go out there and live and go out there and love your career. And this podcast is to help you. And so we want to thank you for your time, tune in and spend some time with us. And as I say, give us some comments if you want to. And we'll certainly act on those all the best for now. Everybody. Thank you. Thank you Julie.

Julie Lee  31:21  

Thank you!