Episode #4: Are Strong Ethical Foundations More Important Than Strong Values?

Strong Ethics are more important than ever. In this episode, Roisin will discuss the implications and importance of having strong ethics and values with special guest Carolyn Varley. 

Here are the highlights of today's episode:

[02:54] Have you found yourself striving to be an ethical leader and an ethical person, but falling short on both counts.?
[09:16] Honouring the legacy of great role models in the family and work.
14:58] Mentoring and Modelling Strong ethics help people grow toward their potential, the sense of satisfaction in seeing teams and students shine in their careers.
[21:39] Being an ethical leader in an organisation whose values are significantly divergent from your own?
[23:37] How to manage ethical conundrums in the workplace.

Carolyn Varley is Director of Communication and Engagement at the Queensland Mental Health Commission. She began her career as a journalist and worked in Victoria, Queensland and Europe before undertaking a Masters in Business (Journalism) at QUT, focusing on journalism ethics. 

She taught journalism and communication at QUT and in South East Asia for more than a decade, co-producing a journalism textbook and two fabulous daughters along the way.

Transcript

#4 Are Strong Ethical Foundations More Important Than Strong Values? 

Roisin Duffy  1:38   

Welcome everybody to the Living Your Career Show, my name is Roisin Duffy. I am a director of Blue Sky Careers. We are a recruitment and career advisory agency. The theme of our show today is: are ethical foundations important, or perhaps more important than strong values? And we have a very special guest and her name is Carolyn Varley. Carolyn is a mother of two fabulous girls. She's a journalist, she's an educator. She's an executive with national and international experience. She's worked in Europe and Southeast Asia. She holds a master's in business in journalism from Q UT. And she specialized in ethics. She has co-produced a journalism textbook, which I imagine Carolyn was a labor of love. She is a former government and university communication leader. She is the current director of communication and engagement at the Queensland Mental Health Commission. Her passion is ethical leadership. And I can't tell you how pleased we are to have you today Carolyn, and thanks for coming and spending some time with us. 

Carolyn Varley  2:46   

Thanks for having me. 

Roisin Duffy  2:49   

I guess the first thing, Carolyn, we've talked about this before, you hold your values and your ethical approach uppermost in everything that you do. 

Q: Why, are ethical foundations more important than strong values? Why do you think they are? 

Carolyn Varley  3:10   

A: Well, I think anyone can have strong values, it doesn't mean that their values in the least bit useful, I would say that we can look around some of the world leaders that we've got at the moment and look at their values. They hold their values very strongly. I think their values are totally unethical and immoral, but they do have very strong values. So now I would say that an ethical approach is more important than a values based one. Unless, of course, your values are based on strong ethics. 

Roisin Duffy  3:40   

One of the things I know that is very important to you, is living an ethical life. I know you to do that in every quarter of your life. 

Q: What does Ethical Leadership mean to you, though? 

Carolyn Varley  3:52   

A: Just before I answer that, I don't know that I do live an ethical life in every quarter, I do my best. But you know, I would be an absolute fraud to suggest that I don't slip up. Of course, I slip up all the time, both at work and in my personal life. I think that it's more important to try, then to actually- well, it would be more important to succeed. But I think that's a big ask for anybody. Hmm. And now I've completely lost what you asked me. 

Roisin Duffy  4:21   

My question was ethical leadership. What does it mean to you? You know, we've talked about some of the political leaders around the world at the moment, perhaps they have they had their own set of values, we may not necessarily agree with them. But I guess it's the ethical standards that we're talking about today.  

Q: What does it mean to you to be the cult leader? 

Carolyn Varley  4:40   

A: So to me, it really means treating everyone fairly, and I mean, your staff, your managers, people at all levels of the organisation, the clients, customers, whatever it might be, that you're dealing with, but the broader community as well. Being aware that what most organisations do has some flow on effect to people that you'll never see that might not even see as your stakeholders. And being fair to you to the community and to the planet, really, I think that's incredibly important for me, because that's being fed to future generations.  

I guess a big key for me is giving people space to grow. I think that any member who's on your team should be growing and should have that capability to grow all the time. So, it's nurturing people helping them develop. And it's taking pride in what they do, rather than taking credit for what they do. So, for me, a measure of success of my role as a leader is the success and the achievements of the people that I'm working with, both now and in the past. You know, when I was a journalism educator, I still come across people who I taught years and years ago, who told me that I had some positive and lasting effect on them. And that's an amazing reward to be able to hear that sort of thing. So yeah, I think that's my idea of ethical leadership. It's leading from within the team, rather than above it. It's working to bring everyone along. 

Roisin Duffy  6:11   

Q: I think one of the things that's important to you is how you were raised. You, I think, at one point, you said to me, Roisin, I've been raised with really good role models, and perhaps you can explain a little bit about how they have influenced you, and who you are today as an ethical leader? 

Carolyn Varley  6:29   

A: One of my most powerful role models are my parents, my mother, in her professional and her private life has always been and continues to be wise, far wiser than I could hope to be fair, considerate of other people's needs, and yet manages to get things done. So for me, that's a terrific role model. I say to  people, before you jump into a decision; what would your mother or grandmother think about that? For me, that's guidance for life, what would my mother or my father have done in that situation? And would I be happy if my own daughters or young adults, if they emulated the sorts of behavior that I'm hoping to model? And I think that's a really odd measure of? Have you, your own standards? And I mean, do you get your ethics from your family, you get your values from your family, from other places, as well, depending on the other influences on you. But that's a really strong starting point, isn't it? 

Roisin Duffy  7:40   

This is interesting, because I think if you are ethical, it's like your friends and your family. When you're raising your children, you are almost automatically associated with families that almost have the same values as you. It's an interesting one, I guess it's an interesting thing for you to in seeking out is that a measure when you say you're looking at other people and what they do and your associations both on a personal professional level… And I guess that ethical rater is something that we really look for in the people that we know and see in terms of their fairness, how they treat others. I guess my question to you is, what leaders do you admire? And why? When you look around you now at the moment, we're dealing with the political side of things at home and abroad. That's a little bit, it hasn't been exactly wonderful in terms of great display of ethics. And we look at some of the companies that have had to pay millions, and in terms of damages to people, perhaps for work that they've should or shouldn't have done.  

Q: And I'm interested in what leaders do you admire? And why do why do you admire them? 

Carolyn Varley  8:44   

A: Well a really obvious one for me in the political sphere is Jacinda, she's not perfect. And she would be the first one to say that she's not perfect. But I think the approach that she takes to well-being including having a well-being budget for New Zealand, points out clearly that well-being is far more important than continued economic growth. And well-being in itself does actually contribute to economic growth. It isn't healthy and doesn't have strong well-being, then everything else is going to start to crumble around the fringes.  

And we can see that in countries overseas. So I think that she is a very clear one. A lot of leaders close at home people that I've worked with, and I'm not going to name them here because it would be like thanking all your aunts and uncles at a wedding and missing one. And so I'm not going to take that risk. But I have worked with some fabulous, terrific leaders. Throughout my career. 

Roisin Duffy  9:45   

Oh, of course, when you look at somebody who's made a decision in a tough time, and I think that's really the sort of the strength of a leader. You've got a pressure point. It could be controversial that could be a lot of public scrutiny.  

Q: What do you look for in that leader when they're making that decision at that point in time, because I think that's where the pressure really is exerted for people, you know, perhaps to sway and little when it comes to their ethical approach? 

Carolyn Varley  10:14   

A: Yes. And it's where I think any of us are at risk of falling down. But if they are conducting their life with a strong ethical framework, what some would call a values-based framework, then it's almost habitual, isn't it? And when they come to making those decisions, they will apply that framework to it. I think also, when it comes to the really pointy end, good leaders take advice from those around them. They don't make decisions on their own, while they do make the decision, because in the end, it's their decision, and they have to bear the consequences of it. But they do that in consultation with people that have advice they value, including people that have views different to their own, because it's so important to be able to seek the counter point. If we go down this path, what are the risks? What are the unintended consequences that could lead to? So, there's got to be a lot of logic and a good framework beyond it. 

Roisin Duffy  11:14   

And I suppose we talk about, you recruit a lot of teams. And you've had ginormous teams throughout the state, and then equally you've had smaller teams. Is there something for you, in particular, when you're interviewing somebody or reviewing an application? And I know, this is a sort of an outside the box sort of question, but this is about careers. And you know, some people hold their values very true to themselves. We talked about a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about if you're going to apply for role work for a company that culturally aligns with your work for values-based leadership, if you hold something, do make sure you seek that out in your applications in the jobs that you pursue in the careers that you develop, watch, look for when you're looking at an application: 

Q: what do you see and seek when you're interviewing somebody when it comes to the whole ethical piece? 

Carloyn Varley  12:04   

A: Hmm. Well, I think that alignment is so important. So, I want to understand their whole life approach. How it can align with the organisation that they're looking to work in. I want them to be able to, I want them to be hungry, rushing, I want people who are really willing to learn no matter what.  I mean I hope that I learned something new every single day. And it would be a bit disappointing to have a day where you think you get together and you think, oh, I don't think I actually broadened my knowledge or skills at all today. So I want people that are always hungry to learn, but that are happy to do that in a cooperative, collaborative environment. I don't want solid bias, I don't think that they're very useful. 

Roisin Duffy  12:59   

I suppose people working to this other side of that question, really, you in this current market times are tough, and people may be forced to take positions that perhaps aren't exactly their ideal role? Or it could be a stepping stone to something? There are so many different ways of looking at why do I take this job? How does it benefit me? How does it benefit my learning? How does it benefit my progression? But I guess the question is that if you find yourself in a workplace, that is not in keeping with your values. 

Q: What advice would you give to young people when they're facing perhaps some of those ethical conundrums? What would you say to them? 

Carloyn Varley 13:39   

A: It’s so true, isn't it, you can't always choose, you can always have your dream job, and you will during your career, find yourself in jobs that really have the potential to make you miserable. But you can't not be there because you kind of need to feed yourself and your family. Absolutely. I think that you need to take the pulse of the people to whom you're reporting to, take the pulse of the organisation. And wherever possible, give frank and fearless advice, where you think that it's appropriate, if you see something that you think is damaging people, damaging the country, the company, that's not useful, then hopefully, you can call it out.  

Obviously, in some companies, that's not going to be an opportunity with some leaders. That's not a possibility either. I think in most cases, you learn everything you can from the company while you're there in that role. And you're also at the same time, looking around to find something that aligns with you better, but don't get bogged down to the point where you're so miserable in a job that you can't see that it's going to offer you anything. If you're stuck there, learn while you're there. 

Roisin Duffy  14:50   

I think there's always that thing when you're coming up through the ranks. And you sort of feel like this is looking at managers and leaders and you see things happening that you don't particularly approve of. And I think there is that fear, I think with ethics comes a level of fear that people are actually concerned, if I open my mouth, that's me, I’m finished. And I'm just wondering how people can broach those conversations without putting it all on the line. You know, you're saying, obviously, in your heart, it doesn't take much to figure out if you're coming to work every day, and you don't want to go there. And you feel compromised in that work. You know, not everybody has the opportunity to walk away, but that would be the plan. But if you felt that you should say something, if you felt, how many young people do, and people coming through the ranks, and they're at work, and they have this sense of, gosh, I really don't agree with this, this is not good. And the bad thing is that it's a top-down culture. And if you say something, you're suddenly being obstructive, or you're being awkward, or you're being too fixed, or you know, those certain attributes, you know, there's a certain style of leadership, when people start to sort of front up and say, I'm not comfortable with this, there's a certain style of leadership that will push you down pretty quickly, and push you to the side even more quickly. My question to you is, how would you broach? I mean, if you're first, if it's a good company, generally, you could just find yourself in a bad function.  

Q: How would you approach it if you're giving advice to young people out there that find themselves in that situation? What sort of strategies do you think would be useful for them to use, before they decide I need to move because this isn't good for me? 

Carloyn Varley  16:45   

A: I think this is where having a good mentor is so important. Whether your mentor is within your organisation or outside, you need someone where you can have a conversation that's removed from the what's actually happening in the workplace to say, look, this is my view, this is what I'm seeing. It seems to me like there's a real problem here. What do you think and unpack that with a mentor who you trust and whose values align, ethics align with your own, and get somebody else to help work it out. And particularly for young people, when you come into those toxic workplaces, and you have no choice but to be there, there's no way you can work that all out by yourself. So, call for help. It might be parents, it might be family members, it might be people in other professions; if you can get a good mentoring relationship going early in your career, it will be invaluable to you. 

Roisin Duffy  17:44   

I think the other thing is too Carolyn, you're having that conversation, it's easy to be emotional when it comes to our values and when it comes to our ethics. But I think,  you have to have the facts and the data at your disposal, whatever you're saying, It has to be objective. I mean, we're not going to go into specific situations today, because that's not what this is about. It's about guidance and counsel. I think we see enough of that played out in the papers and in the news. But I guess if you're talking to somebody about how they might stack up that argument, so the first thing is talking to a mentor, the mentor will hopefully as you say, be aligned with you. But what tools and strategies have you found useful when you're trying to say, look, I think if you go down this path, this is where we might end up? Where are the facts?  

Q: What sort of strategies and tools have you used, perhaps, to broach some of those conversations? 

Carloyn Varley  18:38   

A: I think that the first question and it's a question to, or something to consider for yourself before you even starting conversations is, don't take it personally, I think often things happen to us in the workplace, and we take it personally. And if we continue to take it personally and don't realize that it's got nothing to do with us, it's to do with other people; then that can drive us down and grind to a powder very quickly. So, I'd say don't take it personally. But then you really need to look at the pros and cons of any situation. I mean, if there's something happening, and you're concerned about it, do you think it's illegal? Do you think it's unethical? Well, in that case, maybe it's time to think about being some sort of whistleblower. But that takes a lot of consideration because that can be career destroying, 

Roisin Duffy  19:24   

Q: But that takes a lot of consideration because that can be career destroying, and has a lot of repercussions as we've seen with those that were whistleblowers, and that is such a vulnerable place to put yourself in. 

Carolyn Varley 19:34   

A: And that is your last resort, is whatever is happening so egregious that it just has to stop? Sometimes you do see people that literally have to physically, figuratively throw themselves under the bus to stop something awful happening, but that does occur. There's all sorts of tools out there and I'd go back to something like gum. The bottom box that helps you work out in various quadrants where you think things are sitting and what the issues might be. It might just be writing yourself a list of pros and cons, on a piece of paper, consulting with other people who might have been in similar situations before reading up. But there's no single one answer. Definitely. 

Roisin Duffy  20:25   

I think also, as we talked about a while ago, you talked about a toxic culture. And sometimes things think the ethics of leadership determines the culture of an organisation. And I would just be interested in your comments on that, because again, many people are lured into this blue chip, sophisticated HR, tons of progress, great remuneration, and some companies are like that, but the function you're in could be a dodgy one, you could just have the bad, you could just have that leader, or that manager who's not all that they're cut out to be. But I’d just be very interested in your thoughts about, again, people looking for work, looking to progress and work, people being stuck in roles where perhaps are not altogether too happy, as you described earlier.  

Q: What do you think are the links to ethics and culture? And how is that apparent to you, when you see that it's probably not all that it could be or should be? 

Carolyn Varley 21:19   

A: Now certainly, in an organisation, it starts at the top, and it flows through. In a good organisation, there's opportunities for it to flow through from all levels, but in toxic organisations, it's generally top-down; giving permission to others throughout the organisation to behave equally as badly. The sorts of things that fly through them, and often it goes back into the history of the organisation. And it's become so much part of the culture that it's never going to change, and you're not going to change it, I guess, it comes back to why you're in the organisation. And if you're hunting those really lucrative jobs, which can be pretty enticing, particularly when you're young, then yeah, you might end up in a job that just doesn't align for you, that overtime, even corrupts your own ethics and values. Because that way, you want to be able to go the other way, or, in fact, could go the other way. 

Roisin Duffy  22:21   

And you mature to a point that you said, “This simply isn't acceptable.”  And you started a Master of Journalism, and your specialization was ethics. And I know you've held that true in your career all the way or strove, you've really done everything possible to try to hold that close to you. 

Q: I guess the question is, what are the three things you've learned about ethics? From those studies? And the three things you take with you today? And I'm thinking, particularly for people who are studying what sort of courses they would study? What sort of that would align with their values, not just the work that they do, but the lines of study that the pursue as well, you obviously pursue that for a reason that was valuable for you? What was the three things you took out of those studies? 

Carolyn Varley  23:07   

A: Look, let me tell you why I did a Master's in Journalism Ethics, it was because I was working in an organisation where I saw examples, not across the organisation. But I saw specific examples where ethics was a black hole. It was, you know, anti-ethical, if that can be such a thing. And I was at a level where I put up with it, went along with it to some extent for time. And then I've got to the point where I just said, I can't do this, but I need to restore my faith. I'm in journalism, pretty much and that's why I went off and did that, that master's and it took me off on different paths that I hadn't even imagined at the time. 

The three things that you do, wow. I mean, whatever you pursue, for me, prusue something that you love, because we spend so much our lives at work and it influences every waking minute of our day, and often the sleeping ones, yeah pursue what you love. 

Roisin Duffy  24:18   

I guess the other question is, if you could give advice to leaders today, we live in a very uncertain and unpredictable world right now. There's a lot of talk about government departments, and perhaps some of that top- down management and how people are feeling. You know, we've had seen widespread cuts in university where you used to work, and in the commercial sector. There's a lot of people that are struggling today. And I guess, we talk about leaders needing to be commercial, but they need to also demonstrate, as somebody said, to me, the avocado core, they need to be soft internally. They need to be able to show that they care about people. You can be soft on the outside, and it can be tough on the inside.  

Q: My question to you is, if you were advising leaders today on how to be ethical, how to think about the world we live in today, what would be your key message to them? 

Carolyn Varley  25:14   

A: What are you going to leave as a legacy for the people that are coming along behind? In five years? 10 years? 50 years? 100 years? What are we going to leave behind for them? And that's in terms of community, in terms of culture, in terms of environment. All together? So yeah, what are you doing to help your kids or their kids or their kids? And what sort of world do you want them to live in? And model to them, model and listen to people, find out what they want and expect because it's not personal? It's not all about you? 

Roisin Duffy  25:47   

That's absolutely right. And then there's, I guess the final question is really, young people and people who are in the midst of their careers, people approaching retirement, many, many people ; COVID-19, has been unsympathetic to all and sundry. And we're approaching Christmas now. And then we're going to come into the new year. And I always call that the dust off the CV time. 

Q: I guess my question to you is, from an ethical perspective, from a career perspective, from a job hunting perspective, is there one message that you would give these people that they could make their own that might help them in terms of their strength and resilience and methods and means over the coming weeks and months? 

Carolyn Varley  26:28   

A: Hmm. It's a tough one, isn't it? Because there's no one message for all people? I mean, for most people in Australia, I would say most of us are incredibly and ridiculously lucky. Even now, even if we've lost our jobs, and we have something to fall back on brushing You and I have spoken about the plight of refugees in Australia who had nothing to fall back on? Absolutely. You know, we are, most of us are incredibly fortunate. So, don't forget that don't subside into misery if you can possibly avoid it. Sometimes you have to let yourself plunge down into a bit of misery. But make sure you can see the light and come on out again. What is it that you can do that can contribute to society through your job, and through other measures as well? You know, and if people are out of work at the moment, my god, there's so many volunteer opportunities out there at the moment to help others and at the same time, develop your own skills and develop yourself as a person. 

Roisin Duffy  27:33   

Well, I was just going to say, I mean, there are so many TAFE courses available now at a fraction of their usual cost. And there are so many apprenticeships, traineeships, if you want to go to university, God knows our children need to be working. And Carolyn, you will know what I mean, what the university sector is like right now across the world, and here in Australia. It's going to take a while before normality comes back. And our international students come back. And we're back to some semblance of normality. 

Carolyn Varley  28:04   

If ever, I don't know if it will ever return to what we were. But you know that I think that the pandemics certainly exposed a lot of weaknesses that were already there in workplaces, and in society, and those of us that are fortunate enough to be able to sort of try to contribute towards some repair work they're made to do that; or shut down 

Roisin Duffy  28:36   

One, not really, I think we're at that point where the world is considerably changed. Our own communities are considerably changed. The corporate and government sector as we know, it is considerably changed. And I thought today's session with you was very timely, because this is a period for leaders to take stock, and to understand what fair, equitable, consistent leadership looks like. And to think about that, as we approach 2021, and the challenges that we're facing. 2021 to actually start thinking about who they are, what they are, and the value that they can bring not just to the companies they work for, but the people that work for them, the broader stakeholders and community.  

Carolyn Varley, I just want to tell you, you are a wise lady, and it's an absolute pleasure to spend time with you today. So, thank you very much. And I think there is much for people to take on board and learn from today's conversation. And you and I will be revisiting other things in the future. But I'm very, very happy to have you on board. 

To everybody else who has been listening to our show today: Tune in, take some notes, hope this will help you. 

The Living Your Career Show airs every Tuesday and Thursday at 12 o'clock. We have some fabulous guests for you to listen to. and Carolyn, thank you. I really appreciate your time today and we'll be talking soon. 

Carolyn Varley  29:59   

My pleasure Roisin. I can't wait to see who might come out of the woodwork to tell me that I have behaved in ways that are unethical to them because, you know, I do have a spoken to you a fair degree of imposter syndrome about this type of thing, but all we can do is try to do our best. Yeah? 

Roisin Duffy  30:17   

You said to me Roisin, I always strive I try to be self-aware and I've tried to do what's right for people. And I think, you know, that's probably not a bad value system to start with. And look at where you are today, plenty of credibility. Lady, thank you so much. Appreciate your time. 

Carolyn Varley  30:33   

Thank you. 

Roisin Duffy  30:33   

Bye.