Episode #19 Taking charge of your self-leadership is the smartest move you will make in your career.

Join host Roisin Duffy and special guest Sally Foley-Lewis as they take a deep dive into self-leadership.  Here are the highlights:

• Self-leadership mindset and methods
• Influencing oneself and others
• Expectations of self and others
• Game plans, tools and tips
[11:44]  Sell yourself like a product, highlight your features and benefits
[31:48] Advice for career development: Don't ever stop learning

Multi-award-winner, prolific author, global professional speaker, facilitator and coach, Sally Foley-Lewis is the quintessential expert in Productivity and Self-Leadership. Having trained and worked with over 10,000+ managers and leaders, from medium sized to global organisations, in Australia and further afield in Europe, US, Canada, Middle East, and Asia, it is fair to say Sally knows a thing or two about self-leadership. Her book The Productive Leader received an endorsement from the renowned global personal development guru Brian Tracy.

You can pick up any of Sally's books here:
https://www.amazon.com/Sally-Foley-Lewis/e/B00DT7TUZC/ref=ntt_dp_epwbk_0
or you can connect with Sally:
FB https://www.facebook.com/SallyFoleyLewis
LinkedIN https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallyfoleylewis/

Roisin Duffy hosts the Living Your Career Show Tues/Thurs at 12 noon Brisbane
https://www.facebook.com/Blueskycareers

Transcript

Ep#20_LYC_Taking Charge of Your Self-leadership_SallyFoleyLewis

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, leadership, sally, feedback, bit, interview, confidence, leaders, career, knowing, talk, big, emotions, showing, fear, world, important, maths, feel, walk

SPEAKERS
Roisin Duffy, Sally Foley-Lewis

 Roisin Duffy  00:50

Welcome to the Living Your Career Show everyone. My name is Roisin Duffy. And the theme of our show today is taking charge of your self-leadership is the best career move you will ever make. Our special guest is Sally Foley- Lewis. Sally is a multi-award winner, prolific author, global professional speaker, facilitator, and coach. She is the quintessential expert in productivity and self-leadership. And she has trained and worked with 10,000 plus managers and leaders all around the world. So, in Australia, Europe, Sally, US, Canada, Middle East and Asia. And it's fair to say that Sally probably knows a thing or two about self-leadership. Her book, The Productive Leader, received an endorsement from the renowned global development guru, Brian Tracy, welcome to the show, Sally Foley-Lewis, so lovely to have you. 

 Sally Foley-Lewis  01:49

Thanks Roisin, when you read all that out, I feel tired.

 Roisin Duffy  01:54

I think as we've just discussed, you're busy is probably what I would say. Um, yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting, actually, I guess we're COVID not you'd normally be traveling away quite a lot. And I guess we're in COVID-19. That hasn't been the case has it?

 Sally Foley-Lewis  02:09

 I've been all around the world from my office for the last 12 months. So yes, it's a bit different. It's either: I had the choice of jetlag, now I have the choice of early alarm clocks, to get up and get ready. And in my little street, there's a bright light burning from my office at 3am sometimes.

 Roisin Duffy  02:30

Well, I think I said the word prolific author, and I think we have another book on the way, haven't we? We do. Yes, and spark. So, I think we're all going to be looking out for that one, because that is definitely one that all leaders and self-leaders need to pay attention to. By the way, do you have any kind of eta when it’s going to be out?

 Sally Foley-Lewis  02:48

No, because I'm actually decided to approach this book a little differently to my previous books. I'm actually interviewing a whole range of senior leaders, and going in under the bonnet, as they say, and really exploring their perspective on self-leadership, because I wanted to make sure that I had the voice of people from a whole range of different industries. So, I've been talking to government agencies, emergency services, massive retailers, small community groups, fundraising, the whole game, but and not just in Australia, across the world. So, the interest is a little way off.

 Roisin Duffy  03:34

Yeah, and I guess the perspective on those leaders during the COVID-19 period to where, you've had to have a lot of endeavor and ingenuity to keep businesses up and up and going, I think, and keeping people employed, talking about companies and talking about leaders. 

 Q: What does self-leadership mean? And why is it important in a career sense?

 Sally Foley-Lewis  04:00

So to me, 

 A: Self-leadership is about influencing yourself and being able to lead oneself and I know that sounds a bit flippant, and it's just sort of rewording self-leadership. But let's not overthink it either. Even though the theory and the study of self-leadership relies on, you know, positive psychology, self-determination, theory, motivation, theory, goal setting theory, there's a whole lot of backend research that goes into it. One of the things I think is really important is that when we think about self-leadership and careers, it's about how am I the CEO of my life, how am I making sure that I am in the best state that I can be in in order to have the confidence and the courage and the influence to direct my career rather than as it was 20 years ago, you go in as the junior and you come out as the somewhere in the middle, if not the top of the same organization, you know better than me, you're the career guru. That doesn't happen now. So, I think self-leadership in the context of, of guiding and making sure that you're in control of your career is probably more important than ever was. We think about development opportunities inside organizations now, and a lot of organizations are really hesitant, or they have these programs where they'll support you to do a development program that will influence your career. But it's contingent, there's conditions attached to it. And that's also not something that happened 20 years ago. So, you are in charge of your career and yourself and leading yourself through that process. It is critical for your career success.

 Roisin Duffy  05:49

If somebody will, you know, we're having a chat, we're talking about, how do we know whether we have it or whether we don't have it? What does it if you have self-leadership qualities? What does it feel like? So, if I'm a prospective employer, and I want to employ somebody that's self -directed, I know that they're going to show up and I know they're going to stack up because that's what self-leadership is all about. What would that look like to me? or What does it look like to the person that feels that they may have it or may need to cultivate it? What should they be looking internally to see?

 Q: What does it (self-leadership) look like? 

 Sally Foley-Lewis  06:24

Yeah, great question. One of the things I think is really important, it's not about I don't think that we get anywhere in our life and say, Okay, that's it, I'm fully evolved, there is no more of evolution, I am at the best I'm going to be, I'm going to be the most actualized I'm ever going to be, I'm at the top of the Maslow's pyramid. And, you know, let's face it, that's a lifelong journey, and it never ends. And I think that's one of the biggest things to keep in mind. 

 And if you're an employer, I think we need to keep in mind that people are asked along the journey, and affording them the opportunity to continue that journey. But when you're looking for people, you want someone I'd say, who can own up to what they're not good at, and say, because I'm not good at this, this is what I do.

 You know, not that long ago, I was in an interview situation. And it was part of an experiment. And I had to do a one of these Assessment Center online testy things, and when it came to the math section, I crumbled, and no, I actually felt quite emotional about it. And I could feel I could identify those emotions, I knew they were coming up. And it was like, You know what, I don't care, I'll just wait till the timer goes. And I was a petulant child about the whole thing. And I just went, spat my dummy out? and thought, I'll just wait till until the timer runs out, and the questions move on. And then when the interviewer came, and to do the debriefing, I said to them, before we go anywhere, I found the maths because I don't do maths. But when maths comes up in, in these particular contexts, this is what I do about it. And so, they just looked at me went, Okay, like, you know, this, you know that about yourself, and you've got a plan of how to handle it. 

 And I think that's the thing when it comes to self-leadership, it's that self-awareness, and we constantly building on how we can continually build on our awareness.

 A:  So, doing anything that helps us improve our emotional intelligence, which means not just about knowing who we are, and how we show up, but being able to identify our emotions and then be able to regulate them, but also being able to pay attention to how we impact others than the perceptions others may have on us. Because if we are wanting to employ someone, who can't keep it together in a meeting, or can't pick up on nuances in a meeting, even if it is down the lens these days. And, you know, we need to be able to judge whether they're going to be able to cope in the role. 

 And it's not just about that, but that's one thing to be thinking of, I think also looking at how your how your interpersonal communication skills come into play, because that will infer or affect the way you speak up when you speak up, and why you speak up, and being able to pick the right timing to speak up. And these are all interrelated. You know, they all they all coming together. And they all are driven by our values and our beliefs in what's right and what's wrong. And our actions are our values showing up in the in the organization as well. And that is connected to how we speak up. And I think the other thing that comes into play is where we show up. And so, you know, when we when we come to a meeting, how do we show up in that meeting? How do we participate? When do we participate? When do we know to hold back you We often talk about, Oh, I should have spoken up, I should have done this I should have been here. And it's all about being seen and being, you know, part of. But I think one of the discerning things is also knowing when to hold back. And sometimes are a little bit more holding back.

 Roisin Duffy  10:19

The power of silence. I had a Kevin Ryan on last week, we were talking about negotiation, I think it was interesting, Kevin said, Oh, we actually talked about panel interviews, because Kevin sits on our panel interviews for C suite appointments. And he was saying, Don't ever underestimate the person that can hold their silence and know when to talk appropriately, particularly when it comes to negotiation as well. The other thing you said there, Sally, that's very interesting. You know, we talk about, you know, you're not good at maths, that's not your gig. And I will say to people, and even I interview people, I don't ever ask people what they're not good at. I want to know what they're good at. And that's what I want to deploy. That's what I want to build upon. I mean, in reality, we cannot be good at everything and trying to fix the stuff we're not great at, how about working on the stuff we're great at and make it better. And in an interview sense, I guess, and thinking, you know, job applications and interviews. Nowadays, you probably get one shot, I always sort of say to people, you've got an interview, you've got to make it count. You know better to say I don't want that job, because now I know more about you. But you've got to get the offers. Yeah, it's like interviews are two-way processes. How do people project self-leadership? How do they project that in a job interview, or a job application since because that's the sort of stuff that makes picks up your ears makes you think, I want to see this person, even if you haven't got the industry experience; it's how you tell your personal story, and its relevance to their prospective employer.

 Q: And what would be your counsel to people when it comes to applications and interviews.

 Sally Foley-Lewis  11:49

Now, I think it's all before you even walk in the room. 

 A: To me, it's all about looking at your CV and actually reminding yourself of how much you've achieved, because like you said, this is the time to shine. And you don't have a salesman standing right behind you saying, Yeah, please employ this product, it's a great product, here are the features and benefits, you've got to do that yourself. And it's really, really hard to do. That's why people come and see you, you know, but being able to sell yourself and being able to do it in a way that actually entices the organization to actually take you to the next step in the process or employ you, it means you need to walk in already prepared. So, your mindset is so super important, you need to be really clear about your values and make sure that your values are aligned to the organization's values, or you know how to make that alignment happen. And then when you're looking through your CV, one of the things that I think is really your resume, or I don't know what the term is these days, but when you're looking at it, it's about leveraging what's in front of you, and saying, from this, I have achieved x, y and Zed and making it it's almost a meta decision. So, you want to think about your confidence, you want to think about how you think about yourself. And so, I'm going to walk into this interview, knowing that I have confidently achieved all this. I've also walked into this interview knowing that there have been some ups and downs, and it's through the downs. And then I've had the growth on the other side. And because when I can share that and say, Look, this didn't go well. But this is what I learned. And this is how I fixed it. That's where the gold sits. Because that's the piece that says to a decision maker, this person knows how to think, problem solve, can see and take responsibility, and actually show growth for him. So I think it happens all before you walk in. It's all about understanding. It's not about -not being scared. It's not about -not being nervous. It's not about- not having, you know, concerns. It's about thanking that for showing up and saying I'll take all that energy and put it into my confidence. And my message that I want to share in order to impress.

 Roisin Duffy  14:18

I always say to people, you have two things in life, you have confidence, and you have competence. And you can be fairly sure that interviews are pretty awkward situations. So confidence is the one thing you're the sweaty palms, the shaking feet and what have you. But you may let that stand outside the door. But you must be competent at interview. And by that you need to be able to talk to a subject and showcase what you're all about. Because the first thing that happens once you start talking about your competency is any under confidence is immediately washed out the door. And it returns to and then you get into a flow and you've coached people all around the world, you know, and I guess what have you learned? This actually surprised me, I picked up this famous quote says, “Knowing where you want to go and making sure the right people know about it”, which I thought was actually spot on. And what did you learn from the self-leaders that you are the managers and leaders that you have coached around the world? around? 

Q: What they project as self-leadership? What are the attributes or characteristics of those people, if you will, if there was 1, 2, 3 that you would say, absolute standards, what would they be?

 Sally Foley-Lewis  15:24

A: 1) Their mentors

     I think, I think it's about who they hang around with, and also their mentors. So that's number one. It's not just necessarily about yourself, leader puts themselves in an environment where others might be able to advocate for them. And so smart and self-leaders, look for mentors who can actually give them some advice and guidance, because they've been there before, or they can sponsor advocate and put them in the right room. So number one, who are your mentors, I think that's one of the biggest things that I think is so important. And if you don't have a mentor, then you should be looking for one and it doesn't mean you have the same mentor always, I think you have different mentors for different elements. And you have them for short times for over long periods of time, as well. 

 2) Leverage

The other thing is also leverage. So where is it that you can leverage what you know and do to value add? And what I mean by that is, how do I do? How do I take what I know and what I'm doing to value add to the environment that I mean? So, one of the things that I think is really important is that when we look at what we're doing, and we try to serve others, or serve it in a greater purpose, and be of service to others, then we don't get stuck in our head, whether it's a pity party, or I'm so good party, you know, we could have too much of both. But when we're in service of others, then that gets seen, and it gets experienced by others. And therefore, you get to be known, and you get to be seen as, as someone who is, is wanting to be on other people's teams, you get picked up that way. And I think there's some of the probably the two, the two biggest ones. 

 3) Feedback

But I think the third one is about the feedback that we get. And while feedback might not be delivered, or that well sometimes, and there's some opportunity to improve on how feedback can be delivered as one. So, we just take that lump of feedback we've been given, and we just wipe a few things off it. And then we look at what's left, and we say, Okay, what this is telling me I need to focus on. And then asking yourself, how important is this to me, and how I show up in the world for myself and for others. Because if I can't lead myself, the way I believe I should be, then I'm going to struggle to lead others as well. And so, feedback is absolutely critical. And if we aren't seeking out feedback, that's a bit of a red flag for me.

 Roisin Duffy  18:03

I often think back, go home and have a nice glass of red and just reflect on what's been said; I come back stronger the next day. What was it that cop said on the show at breakfast shows this take a spoon of cement and toughen up. I never heard that expression before.

 Sally Foley-Lewis  18:19

I absolutely loved it. Yeah, love it. Yeah.

 Roisin Duffy  18:24

Your white paper, I obviously as you know, had a look through, you know, you're involved in so much when it comes to leadership and management development. And your white paper talks about self -control and you know, interacting and influencing others. And I guess I wondered, you know, some people when they practice self-control, it can always come across as a bit aloof or guarded or separatist almost. So, 

 Q:  Describe self-control as you mentored and I guess, how can that be useful to people in a work sense in building their career?

 Sally Foley-Lewis  18:58

A: I think it's about being able to know when to speak up when not to speak up. When it's not about never having emotions, that it's not about never showing your emotions. Because I remember years ago, I had a boss that said to me, you could just leave your emotions at home. And I remember thinking, I remember I was a bit shaky. So, I looked down at myself and went and uh, “Which hole shall I take them and leave them at home?” Because you can't. Okay, that might have been a career limiting move that I did back then. And managed to just keep my job. But the reality of that is you cannot leave your emotions at home. We are a bag of emotions held together by skin and bones. And so, the control element is being able to identify what our emotions are. The control element is then, you know, if I can identify this emotion, then I'm best placed to regulate it. It's not about- not having the emotion. It's about going. Okay, I'm really, really proud Straight up with this person right now. And if I explode, I'm going to lose it and the relationship is done or this project will break down, or I'll lose my job. So, I need to go and do something to just calm it down. Let's breathe it through and go, and let's have a cup of tea and regroup and five minutes, you know, and then you go outside and scream at a tree, come back and then start again. And I don't think it's definitely not about being aloof or guarded. It's just that being, again, the CEO of you, you know, how do I want others to perceive me? And when's a real, when is it okay to share something so that people get the essence of me, I think, self- control, some people interpret that as, like you're saying is, you know, stuck, guarded or standoffish or aloof, and they don't share anything, and then it's really hard for others to go ahead, I have a relationship with you. Whereas I think it's about knowing, we're human, and we're fallible, and that's okay. You know, I remember making this mistake, and this is how I fixed it. And, and this is what I learned from it. And, and together, we'll get through this. And yes, we're annoyed that this has happened, but we can fix it. So I think it's about that control element is knowing when to speak up, knowing when to show up and knowing when to shut up, you know, and knowing when to share.

 Roisin Duffy  21:27

I think that's absolutely fantastic. It's interesting, you talk about leaders and when they struggle to get feedback. The other thing, of course, is where they make decisions without consulting you. I think, when you talk about your values, when you talk about culture, when you talk about when you find those and they're aligned, I think no matter what the industry, what you're doing, there's a fair chance that you're going to be invested in that company. If you don't have that, and I think, for me, personally, I hate it, when leaders take credit for people's work. Like that is the one thing for me in appointing people and recruiting people. You know, stand tall, be proud, get on with your work. But always acknowledge where the good idea came from, always acknowledge that bit of creativity, because I can tell you that's a blessing to your team in terms of making them feel empowered and affirmed. I'm curious, you talked about, being authentic, being real, being relatable; you've met leaders that had all the potential in the world.

 Q: In taking decisions in isolation and struggling for feedback, are those the biggest opportunities that they would miss in terms of being great as leaders? 

 Sally Foley-Lewis  22:48

A: I think so. And I think it's fear, there's a sense of account. And I'll give you the example. And I have to totally agree with you about the credit thing and stealing credit. It's a big button for me, personally. So, when you were saying that I could feel more? Yes. And I was working with I was, I was engaged to do some coaching with a manager who, unfortunately, the everything that this organization had done today was not getting through to this manager. And so they said, Can you come in, we'll throw six coaching sessions at him. And I thought, that's an interesting phrase. And we'll see where we go with this. And we'll work with him. And we need him to take some responsibility. We need him to listen to the team, no one in the team is engaged. He's actually going beyond the scope of his role and creating problems with clients. 

 And so, what I did after the third session was, I was about three quarters away into the end of the third session, it was; and I leaned right in, and I said, lean in. Do you get while I'm here? And he said, No. And I said, I'm kind of the step before you get sacked. And he said, Really? And I said, you didn't get that before? Now. He said, I knew things were pretty hard. And I said, so what do we need to do to wake you up to what's going on around you? How do you do that? How do you become more aware of what's happening around you, and the impact you're having on everyone around you?

 So, empathy is a big one. And I mean, empathy from the perspective of understanding what is happening for others from their perspective and being able to get yourself into their shoes. And that's a huge one that I see a lot of, a lot of people struggle with. And the other one is fear. Fear to be, fear that they, that their real them may be seen. And I think that's a real shame because the real them is probably the better version than the rubbish that they bring in. 

 I say that with quite a mean statement, but it's quite true. This manager that I was working with, the version he was bringing was terrible. And I was quite blunt with him. And there was something in him that just would not let go. And he felt that this facade had to be there to prove that he was a leader. And unfortunately, he was being something other than that. And so, and it was fully fear driven. And unfortunately, we didn't get to the bottom of that, I actually gave the coaching sessions back and said that he's not willing to change. I'm pretty in your face, when it comes to some things like this, I want this guy to, I really wanted this guy to be able to shift, but he chose not to. 

 So yeah, but it's a fear of. And I think, I think there's this tipping point when someone realizes we get the true essence of you. When your team sees you, they're going to warm to you, they're going to respect you. Now, I do say this with a bit of a bell curve of a stent, you know, the standard deviation bell curve, because there will be a tiny cohort that don't even care. And there'll be a tiny cohort that go, how do I manipulate this? Because that's the world we live in. But the huge majority go, Oh, you've shown up, I respect this, how can I lean in and be a better follow up for you. And I think that's a big thing. So, fear and empathy are two big things that really need to be handled.

 Roisin Duffy  26:46

And we talk about showing up. And we talk about, I guess the thing you were saying that success and self-leadership, your words are intertwined. And people need to shift from avoidance to acceptance. Now, that's fear we've just talked about and overcoming fear, which is, you know, that's a deep-rooted thing. For some people, it's an insecurity, they're afraid that their inadequacies are going to be uncovered. So, watch, that's how we all learn together. It's in the problem solving and the sharing of that. But I guess

 Q: I'm wondering, what do you say to people to trigger their courage and their tenacity so they can back themselves, I see so many people, and they've got so much in the gas tank. But somehow, you know, there's a quiet achiever. And then there's actually someone who just needs a bit more courage, and a bit more tenacity. Because I think without courage and tenacity in these markets, they're probably going to struggle, there's not gonna be ton of jobs going around, there's not gonna be ton of interviews going around. And if you really want to be the best version of yourself at work, you kind of got to stand tall and get on with it. And the teaspoon is immense stuff again, and well, how what do you say to people to trigger that courage and tenacity?

 Sally Foley-Lewis  28:01

A: There's a few different things you can do. There's some of some exercises you can do. But it's basically down to some coaching and some goal setting and coaching and goal setting that's related to building confidence and understanding what the trigger is for the lack of confidence. And because that's based on fear of rejection or failure or resentment, those big three chestnuts, it's resentment, rejection and failure. So, making sure that we handle that and unpack that a bit more. 

 The other thing is also values alignment. And when we have far more values aligned, we can then look at how we show up with our behavior. And looking at where that shows up day to day for ourselves, and in the work that we do.  And I think also another really practical way to handle that is goal setting, and actually breaking a goal down into some daily actions, and some daily reflections. And again, I would come back to doing feedback and doing some emotional intelligence work. And because all these have that cumulative effect of growing our courage and our confidence to be the best version of ourselves, I think also, it's a great exercise people can do that looks at how you would want to be talked about when you're not in the room. 

 As a first step: Think about what it is you'd like others to say about you when you're not there. Because let's face it, they do, everyone talks about everyone when they're not in the room. And you're naive to think if they like, so let's make sure that we're making it a positive. But then that's one part of it.  Then the other part of it is to reach out to some really close friends and family and some colleagues that you trust and say what are five words that you would use to describe me and then you compare these two. Then you've actually got an A and a B, and you go, Okay, how do I go from what they've told me, to actually what I want to be perceived as?

 Now nine times out of 10, the feedback you get from everyone about the five words has you walking around on cloud nine for a day, because they're pretty good words, and they're actually probably better than what you'd said about yourself. So that in and of itself boosts your confidence. And I think it's important to savor that moment, don't just let it wash by you, you need to reflect on the fact that people see you, probably in a better light than you see yourself sometimes. If it's the other way around, though, and you don't get great feedback, those five words aren't so fantastic compared to what you want to be perceived as, then this is actually fantastic information. That's great! Now we can create a plan to get from A to B.

 Roisin Duffy  30:59

Yeah, and I think it's also constructive feedback. And I know not everybody is delicate in the way that they give feedback. But constructive feedback is something that you really should take on board because it's part of your own personal stretch, absorb and be grateful to people that give you that kind of feedback. You may bristle at first, but I can assure you, once you get your head around it, you realize, yeah, well, that's probably fair. And once you get to “that's probably fair and reasonable’, that's the time at which you do something about it. An aspiring professional has gone on to say if they don't take that feedback, that's when they call you, Sally.

 Sally Foley-Lewis  31:33

A question? Yes, that's something to that. Of course, for a lot of people, giving feedback is not easy. Because they spend a lot of time trying to craft a message that doesn't hurt feelings, and they try to craft it so that they don’t get a backlash. So, for many, many, many people, giving feedback is not an easy thing to do. So, when we're on the receiving end of it, it sometimes helps to remember that might not have been that easy for them to say it, even if they said it really pretty poorly. And if I walk away from this experience, having received this feedback, but I walk away with an assumption that they had a positive intent; it will help the relationship stay pretty good. 

 Roisin Duffy  32:19

I think that's spot on. And any final comments? So, if there was a parting gift to any aspiring leaders out there, so the Living Your Career Show is all about giving confidence and tools to people to advance in profession, so that they can effectively plan and manage their career. Essentially, it doesn't matter what level you're at, so long as there's a level of ambition, motivation, aspiration. Those are the sorts of people we're talking to. And have you been.

 Q: Any final comments to them? Before we part company today?

 Sally Foley-Lewis  32:48

A: Don't ever stop learning, be curious about yourself, I think that's the biggest thing. Don't ever stop being curious about who you are, and how you show up in the world, and how things impact you know, if something happens, and you didn't like it, or you had an interesting reaction to it, then instead of brushing it aside, ponder just that little bit longer and just think, why am I responding like that? Or why am I feeling like this? What's that about? Because that exploration is adding to the cumulative effect of building and boosting our self-leadership, anything that you do, that helps you become even more courageous and confident and influential about your own life and you and who you are, and sure of yourself, then that's always going to be in the positive with the maturity to deliver it.

 Roisin Duffy  33:47

And accepting that, you know, careers are filled with fortuitous twists and turns. You can have great days, you can have down days, always welcome to down days, that's your opportunity for getting creative or getting collaborative and sorting things so and Sally Foley-Lewis, all I have to say to you is wow, I mean, there's just so much packed in there. And if we broke this down, and we said to people just work on any one aspect of what you just shared today, imagine how empowered people would feel and it would be coming from the inside out, not looking for external stimulus is coming from the inside out self-leadership.

 A final quote, Mastering others is strength. Mastering oneself is true power ~ Lao Tzu. And Sally, thanks for being with us. Great. I mean, fantastic. It is quite clear to see what you do as clear, quite obviously, what you do and why you do it. And this is why you're the expert in your field, and everybody else. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And we will come back to this again, because as you know, there's more books coming and there's lots more discussion to be had about both of those. And for anybody who is tuning in, we will have a link to Sally's book. And when we actually take out the promotion on this on LinkedIn and some other places, all the social media to everybody else, thank you very much for tuning in. And, obviously Sally, thank you for your time today. 

 For me Roisin Duffy, I'm back again on Thursday with another show at 12 o'clock Brisbane noon. Until then, I'm going to say bit bid farewell to you all and see you all soon.